I ask What the H#!! Judges?

[Bomber Boy]

First let me ask a Question. Do any of you wash your windows on your car everyday, much less while under fire or at war? I know I don't or wouldn't! I may not have listed this in the right section but since I am an aircraft modeler I felt it appropriate. I am a member of three forums and intend to post tis on all of them.

I was at a show this past weekend of which I also judged, and I entered 10 models. this event was judged in the Gold, Silver, Bronze form as apposed to 1,2,3, I feel that at no time am I less than bronze, of the 10 I received 1 silver and 5 bronze with 4 not getting anything. REALLY? The biggest complaint was TOO MUCH SILVERING/WEATHERING, or specs in the windscreen, REALLY? An example of too much silvering on my model per the judges.

and an example of specs on windscreen


REALLY? Come on people this is taking things just a little out of the realm of reality, I DO NOT BUILD MUSEUM MODELS, I build down in the dirt battle wagons. I guess they would say these plane have toooo much weathering too and would deem them UNAIRWORTHY.












I have No problem being hit by glue shine, fingerprints in paint, Gaping hole at wing root or fuselage seam, but where do they get off telling me "I AM WRONG" with my weathering. I even had one say that I was wrong in having a seam line on the lower part of my He111 nose where the windscreen meets the Fuselage, when as you can see in this photo that there IS clearly a seam there

I was also hit By an "Illegal" loadout on F-4C cause I have 1 different AIM on my rack, what the HECK is that all about?


I think most judges just don't even have any ideawhat they are talking about even some of the ones who build aircraft. I research every plane I build extensively and Have about 15years as a bodyman who has worked on all kinds of metal to be painted and have seen some pretty messed up metal and some WELL WORN paint on that metal.

IF you are a judge, come down OFF that High Horse you are on and judge the construction of the model and lay off the subjective WEATHERING of said model, that is the ARTISTRY of this beloved Hobby and YOU have NO right telling anyone they are WRONG or it is TOO MUCH. Get over yourself and look at real planes and not those "GOT TO BE SHOWROOM QUAILITY CAR MODEL PLANES" I do NOT build those!!!!! I guess you most likely still think the examples I've shown here are not real, well they are and they show wear. In war especially WWII they were less worried about how something looked and more about could it fly and shoot and if not they patched and fixed and sent it out not bothering to wash the Windshield, and that comes straight form the mouth of a good friend who is 89 years old AND WAS There!!!!!!

So let me have it!!! If I am wrong prove it. I admit I do not know all there is to know but I do have a good start. I may be wrong with my load out on my F-4C but it seemed logical that as they run out of one type of arms they would load something in its place and how do you call something that is meant to Kill " Illegal" in how it is loaded?

Just my thoughts,
James

 

[Chris S]

James ...I fully understand your frustration buddy ,Judging is something that I dont think anyone will understand ,I have seen models take a gold at one show and yet not score in the next ??? how do you work that out ?? I was at Euro Militare last year and it was a real eye opener for me ,it seemed to me that most of the stuff was picked because it was something that 'interested ' the judges ..ie ,if a judge like Napoleonics he would pick a Napoleonic figure over a much better finished WWII figure ! Which in my eyes just isnt the way to do it . Sometimes its just a case of who you know instead of what you can do !!! This was the case in another show last year in the UK where Judges awarded themselves the Golds !!! ...yip ...its true ,mates looking after mates ! Me ...I dont think anybody judging should be allowed to enter a comp ,I certainly wouldnt think of doing it !!!
Anyhoo ,I think your builds are spot on fella ,maybe you'll get 'Lucky' at the next show ....get to know the judges first tho' ;D

Chris.

 

[bartekk]

Just ignore. As Chris says. It's similar everywhere, even in post communist Eastern Europe. Recently some older judges say that clean models look better. Seems they don't understand many things or they are jealous that can't achieve new technics.

 

[Bomber Boy]

Ok let me Clear a few things. 1) I was one judge of Three, in Three teams, I did not judge my models another team of three judged Them. 2) I live way away form where this show was held and since it was a GSB show I don't feel slighted by not being one of the boys. I'm satisfied with the way and how I build models and think I have a lot to offer others as well as a lot to learn from others, that is why I pose the question. 3) I have and present documentation of every model I build as well as a sheet detailing kit name, material, paint, scratch and Photo/resin notations, not one was looked at. I as a judge read said material of each model I did Judge.

I got some what of an answer as to the load out and I said I could be wrong and I"ll eat that one( should have done a bit more research). I just figured as it was an OOB build (which is shown with model at show attached to about Bio with paper clip) since one of the (I don't have time to research proper name) white tipped ones disappeared as has not been seen since I used one of an extra set that came with it, My Bad.

More later, as I say I have this on three sites and I have to write to all at once and paste so I'll be in and out to respond and I'm glad we all talking. I most likely will display only from now on, as I don't see some ever getting what I mean by all this.

James

I now see that this thing comes off a little heavier than I really intended. I also think that the pic I chose in hindsight was a little bit flashy so here is another.

now keep in mind with this photo the door is a bit unhinged as I hit it just before the shot and didn't notice it till after, it was repaired for the show. Also I should have taken a hit for the decal misalignment but did not it was the weathering.

 

[Rentar1]

Hey there Bomber Boy!

Let me start by saying I am a certified AMPS judge and While I understand where you are coming from, I have to say that Judging for the most part gets very subjective and as much as we modelers would love to have our models judged for "what they are and how they are presented", its just the nature of contests. Try not to take it personal. If you bring a model to one show it may get GOLD at another it may get nothing. Most some judges judge a model based on how "they would do it" instead of taking it for what it is. The only real suggestion I have for you is to include on your entry form, at you next show, the reasons why you painted or weathered your model a certain way,( i.e. specs on windshield and silvering the wings), and maybe include some of the photos you posted as reference. All of us that go to shows have to accept that the judging may not seem fair some times but I think most of the shows try to be as fair as they can be. Hope this helps you. A friend told me that there are two ways to build models... for a show or for fun... you can't do both. So , build your model the way you want and if the "JUDGES" don't like it screw em'! Good luck at the next one and have fun!

 

[MilitaryAircraft101]

We call people who get anal about these kind of things and don't even allow people to enjoy the hobby because it's not how they like it "JMN"s They look pretty damn fine to me mate

 

[Bomber Boy]

Thanks Guys, maybe y'all get it. I understand that with 10 entries it may seem excessive but that will be explained late, hey it is what I have built since I was there just last year, thats right 10 kits and one engine since last Jan., I Have A Loving Wife. so here is what I post else were. You guys are truly ROCK and ROLL modelers.


Had folks on other sites tell me to stop crying BOO HOO so this is meant answer to those types of comments and a few others. Never said anything about getting gold on ALL not by a long shot, and I say most of my entrees, and I openly acknowledge there were flaws they did not mention, just the weathering was mentioned.

Let me explain the over all contest gist as to categories there was AIRCRAFT, SHIPS, ARMOR, ETC. Had I been at a regular IPMS show with 1,2,3, I would have been divided by several categories including several OOBs, not all 10 in one category but here you put all your planes together side by side, if you got tanks they go over there, and that is that. The feel of this show is to judge you against you, and as conceded as it may seem I don't think I'm any where near not getting at least bronze, when most of the reason is for weathering and not construction. Each model is judged on 1-5, 5 being the best in two stages 1) construction, 2) finish with a couple add 1 for impression and 1 for accuracy(documentation), and a subtract 1 for inaccuracy ie a purple P-51 without documentation. one only need get 7 total points for bronze. YOU could and some did get a medal for every kit. I understand all of what you are saying about booo hooo but it is not that, it was set up that way. The Spit in question scored two 2s and nothing for accuracy, and the only crit was the weathering, really the construction a two, when the requirement for getting a 1 is that it is glued together? Not crying just confused. I judged a guy at this show on his first attempt at a show Gaps everywhere no sanding and silvering on every decal. He didn't make bronze but and when he approached me with questions I gave him the crit on those things and told him how to avoid slivering but I never discussed his weathering attempts as the reason, but did offer "TIPS" for that as well, since he asked.

I am happy with what I came away with I just feel that some thing so subjective shouldn't have such an effect, especially when documented.

oh yeah as to the spinner / prop question after reviewing the photos and before the show that was corrected, as when the pic was taken it had just been put on to take photo no even glued. Now to discoloration on the elevators and top of rudder it is light sea gray not sliver, as painted cloth will retain some color after bits chip off and being that it is painted after resined it to will chip and wear just as the metal will just NOT silver but light sea gray I can see it.

James

 

[java]

Look at all that silvering,what a mess.

They would have weathering.

looking great to me anyway,nice job.

 

[adampolo13]

James, first of all I gotta say I think you builds are pretty freaking fantasic. Secondly, your advice, hints and tips have helped me tremendously! Thank you!

Lastly, I sounds like you are not complaining about your builds not taking gold. It sounds more like you disagree with the way the entries are judged? Am I correct? If that is the case, I think you should start a show of your own with new judging rules. Seriously, how cool would that be? I am brand new to building and am a long way off from entering something in a contest and there is NO way I would want to enter a contest as screwy as the ones you describe. We need some change to the whole system I guess.

 

[Bomber Boy]

James, first of all I gotta say I think you builds are pretty freaking fantasic. Secondly, your advice, hints and tips have helped me tremendously! Thank you!

Lastly, I sounds like you are not complaining about your builds not taking gold. It sounds more like you disagree with the way the entries are judged? Am I correct? If that is the case, I think you should start a show of your own with new judging rules. Seriously, how cool would that be? I am brand new to building and am a long way off from entering something in a contest and there is NO way I would want to enter a contest as screwy as the ones you describe. We need some change to the whole system I guess.

Adam you may have just started in this hobby and maybe that is why you get it or maybe it is that you have read what I have said and understand That I am trying to bring a conversation as to changes that need to be made in judging. My seams are filled and sanded wing roots sanded and sealed, stabilizer plum, elevators and wings level and can be measured as I do with every model, landing gear straight and tires flattened and bulged. No glue on wind screen and futured. the only thing that was stated as to why not bronze much less gold was the weathering (subjective) and that alone should not be enough to nock me out all together when it was not a contest againt others but my self and my models. every one was judged on there on merit not the one around it. For instance I know the P-51 I entered was not of gold merit but if you only have to glue it together to get a 1 and 5 is best do you think anything I build should get a 2 and that is what I got on one of the phantoms and both of the spits a 2 just because of weathering or so that is what was stated on entry form. While I judged this same show I never considered how it was weathered as far as artistry but did it have fingerprints in the paint, was it smooth, was there silvering of decals, those kind of things, not OHH that is way to much weathering lets knock him out. This show was set up so that you could get a medal for every model you show it is not the usual 123 show for IPMS where i would expect not to even place with the P-51 and would be fine with that as it does have issues in places and it got a bronze and the spits got nothing and they are built way better than the P-51. I've said this on other forums that don't seem to get it but they still don't get it.

Here are the ones I submitted All have more shots if you like but here is one of each. I don't have any of the other contestants and since I was not competing against them, only on my own merit, they are irrelevant. What I do have reference for on this computer I will add as well. I do my Bio work on a PC as it has all my adobe apps on it but I do have some on my laptop.

the two Spits (None) 1/48



The Stuka and engine (silver) 1/24



F-86 1/48 (Br)



P-51D (br)

I didn't find out until after I had drilled the canopy that they didn't use that antenna after a certain point but it was in my reference as pictured.







F-4C (none) 1/48



F-4J (none) 1/48





Granted it does now have a slight shadow along the top seam as it got cold the night before show and it cracked the putty but you must have a flashlight to see shadow, very faint.

He 111 H6 and H22 (br both) 1/48

Ju 88 (Br) 1/48

There you go.

In a side note I have built all of these kits since last Jan when they had there last show which I also attended and judged. I have a Very Loving Wife !!!!
James

 

[fumblethumbs]

Yeah, I've heard the stories of buds taking care of buds at contests. I'm no judge...A novice modeller at best, but IMHO you've got some absolutely beautiful works there BB! I'm thinking many of SMA's best aircraft modellers would concur. My advice (not that you're asking) would be to pass on the contests and show your works elsewhere (here)! Obviously, this contest has raised your blood pressure a bit...Not good. Don't need to have a stroke or heart attack over some malfeasance at a model contest.

 

[the Baron]

That's why I don't build for competitions. I know the arguments about improving your skills, by competing. But ultimately, you're building for the judges, and I'd rather achieve accuracy.

For example, I think some aircraft models that I see in competitions have over-emphasized panel lines, but many judges seem to like these.

And I remember a story from AMPS from a couple of years ago. A modeler built an Abrams, and detailed the tank with field-modified cargo storage. He was standing close by as a judge looked as his model and then remarked, "They never had any racks like that! It's all wrong!" The modeler proceeded to show the judge pictures of the tank, pictures he took when he commanded that very tank in Desert Storm. I've always thought that that's a good story.

There are bad judges, and there are good judges. And I don't mean to deter anyone from competing. Though I do enjoy seeing the work at a competition, entering is just not for me.

 

[Bomber Boy]

Obviously, this contest has raised your blood pressure a bit...Not good. Don't need to have a stroke or heart attack over some malfeasance at a model contest.

Not really I just wanted to get a conversation going as to things I feel need to change, but one man alone can not do it. Most of the guys who made the rules have done it this way so long they are scared to make any changes, and 30+ years ago even I built Pretty plane as the only reference I had may have been a Book from the school library and the instruction sheet, and the one or two photos in the book were most likely museum pics. I am not a writer I'm a degreed artist with a LD and I too am a pretty sarcastic individual so some times I come across a little harsh.

So no I'm not that upset I got over that in college believe me. The funny thing is that people else where focus on the fact I entered 10 models in one category where there was only one cat to enter AIRCRAFT, all sizes, all types, one Category. I just happened to build ten planes in the last year since last I showed there, Had I built a ship it would be under the SHIP Category, where every other kind of ship would also be and every ship could win a metal not just 123. Not the fact that just because of weathering they did not medal every thing else should have gotten al least bronze didn't matter that every thing was plum and level, smoothly painted, no silvering of decals, panel lines rescribed and or raised in the case of the F-4C from monogram. it was just not what they liked about the weathering. take away the weathering and paint it a smooth sliver it would have gotten at least bronze, in this particular way of scoring. That's my reason for starting conversation.

Thanks for the encouragement though. I really don't feel that bad other than I'm a little chilled on a cool day in Va.

James

 

[adampolo13]

James, I think we should start a monthly or quartlery competition here on SMA. I know they have the big spring contest with prizes etc, but how cool would it be if there was kind of an "on-going competition" The other thing that I think would be neat is if it was "user-judged" where each user votes on what he/she thinks is best in category etc. I have no idea what the IPMS rules are, even though I read the manual, but I know a great model when I see one. Maybe us frequent posters and users could start a new thread etc and just start it up?

 

[Myke]

I don't envy judges, they take some serious heat on forums. Some deserved, some not. Sorry you feel bad man. At the end of the day you have a some pretty sweet builds, got some great skills, and a pretty solid family here at the herd that appreciate your work and knowledge. Hopefully that will help you get through the tough times.

Imagine how John Vojtech felt after the IPMS nationals and his F-15 didn't win. I know "why" he didn't win but I don't believe it. I think it was something political, which seems to be the common theme amongst a lot of competitions.

 

[spud]

wow you have some really cool builds there, I think these judges need to judge what they see not what they like, i mean if you entry a showroom peice judge it on that, if you enter a battle worn peice judge it on that. IMO the battle worn is far more interesting to look at than a showroom peice.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

I have been on both sides of the table, both as an entrant and a judge, and I have to say alot of times judges don't get the respect that they deserve. Mind you there are other times when judges have no business being a judge in the first place.

In a perfect world, a kit should be judged on it's merits, and not who built it, or if the judge likes that particular genre, but we all know that doesn't happen often.

I know with our show....we don't compare one kit to another, no "triage" round of judging where you effectively throw out the ones that don't look "worthy" to judge in the 30secs you took to look at them. Everything gets judged on its own merit based on a set of judging criteria, and is assessed a score, depending on where that score falls in the medal table, is the medal you get. Highest score in the category wins it's category, highest score of the show wins best in show.

Our scoring criteria is heavy on build quality, fit and finish, and less on the fact that contestant A built kit X and spent $150 in resin and PE addons, while contestant B built the same kit out of the box. We don't feel that someone should be rewarded for putting a pile of cash into their kit, but how well it is put together, nor do personal feelings become apart of it.

Its not an easy job to do, but when done well, it can be rewarding, not only for the contestant, but for the judge as well, knowing that they did a good and fair job.

 

[Bomber Boy]

Hey Myke, thanks for the comforting thoughts but i don't feel that bad just wanted to pose the question. I understand there is always politics that enter judging, I post this to bring attention to it, get it out in the open and have a conversation. I as a Long Haired Hippie Freek, I like to think I'm past the politics when I judge. I judge on the merit of the build not wether or not I like the subject matter, I try and judge a showroom built kit the same as a well weathered kit. Even if you build a P-51 that has 12 kills on it and looks show room new, if it is constructed properly ie no gaps in fuse and wing root, and paint is smooth and creamy it will score well even though I know you can't get 12 kills and have a pristine finish, I do not judge his taste just his skill, and I think others should as well, Thats all. This is not about vanity it is about doing the job right.

I love my Family here at SMA and part of all of this is that i wanted to kull out some sites that I post in as I've stated I have this on three sites and this site is one I'll continue posting with, only one will see less of the three. I want to spend my time with people of like minds and evaluate things fairly. I also wanted help in deciding if I still want to enter contest or just display, I mostly will just display from now on, although if I build something SUPER WELL I may enter, but I just wanted to see.

Spud thanks for the comps as well. I love seeing Ya'lls work as well!! Don't worry I ain't goin' nowhere I still have a lot to learn and share, here where the sky is blue and the wind is good.

James

 

[schweinhund227]

That's why I don't build for competitions. I know the arguments about improving your skills, by competing. But ultimately, you're building for the judges, and I'd rather achieve accuracy.

Wow.... right on the money! "The Baron" which is exactly why I got out of Comp.
I got tired of seeing the very same models each years... winning again and again....from one town to another from event to event ! They Call it Doing "the Circuit" ! They know where and when to start and where to end their streak.... so the model always qualifies... Which I think is rubbish !

When it wins... (retire the darn thing) bring something NEW !!!

Enjoy your HARD work buddy.... and just go to shows to buy cool stuff.... if you are not in the CLICK! then might as well roll a dice ! ribbons are ribbons.... yeah it cool but....they are still Silk Ribbons !!!

Not All shows are run that way..... but if the show you are "attending" are held by local clubs..... then.... bring your Dices with you !

I have been to shows where local clubs or club members were not allowed to compete.... that made life a lot easier ! but for some reasons... there were not as many kits on the tables.... LOL !

Enjoy your models and modeling my friend..... Comp. is for A.R.J.P

You planes are fine.... mighty fine !!!

Brush it off and Walk tall !!! After all it's just a hobby!

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

That's why I don't build for competitions. I know the arguments about improving your skills, by competing. But ultimately, you're building for the judges, and I'd rather achieve accuracy.

Wow.... right on the money! "The Baron" which is exactly why I got out of Comp.
I got tired of seeing the very same models each years... winning again and again....from one town to another from event to event ! They Call it Doing "the Circuit" ! They know where and when to start and where to end their streak.... so the model always qualifies... Which I think is rubbish !

When it wins... (retire the darn thing) bring something NEW !!!

Enjoy your HARD work buddy.... and just go to shows to buy cool stuff.... if you are not in the CLICK! then might as well roll a dice ! ribbons are ribbons.... yeah it cool but....they are still Silk Ribbons !!!

Not All shows are run that way..... but if the show you are "attending" are held by local clubs..... then.... bring your Dices with you !

I have been to shows where local clubs or club members were not allowed to compete.... that made life a lot easier ! but for some reasons... there were not as many kits on the tables.... LOL !

Enjoy your models and modeling my friend..... Comp. is for A.R.J.P

You planes are fine.... mighty fine !!!

Brush it off and Walk tall !!! After all it's just a hobby!

Nothing wrong with a local show, and nothing wrong with the club members being allowed to enter.

In the 10yrs I have been with our local club here, only once has the Best In Show been won by a local club member. I would have to go back through the category winners, but more often then not, entrants not part of the club were winning the Best in Category prizes.

Also nothing wrong with "Doing the Circuit" If I build a model I want to show it off, if that means taking it to multiple shows, there is nothing wrong with that. We have 3 local shows here in the Maritimes, and my models go to all 3, once they have had a turn at each show....they then get "retired"

Just because a model wins something at one show, doesn't mean it will get jack squat at another show. I have had quite a few models that got different awards at different shows. Anything from a Best In Show to not even an honorable mention for the same kit in different shows.

My LAV C2, I won best armor at our local show (much to my surprise as I personally thought there was much better on the table then my own), and not even place at other shows.

The problem with alot of people is they build for the express purpose of trying to get awards at shows. I build for me. Sure...if a show as a particular theme, I will try and build something that fits said theme, but I am still building the kit for me, and no one else. If I take it to a show and win something for it, great.....if not....oh well, as I don't enter shows to get awards, but to see what other people have built, get ideas, talk with and see people that I only get to see once or twice a year at shows.

If you go into a show with no expectations and you win something, it is much better than going in with high expectations and getting nothing.