How to improve the performance of a smart car....

[Gundamhead]

Hydrogen is not a hydrocarbon. When you burn it you make water. There is almost zero pollution from burning hydrogen.

Fast food joints do not dump the oil. They also only change it (5-10 gallons) once evey week or so. They sell the used oil to recyclers. Dumping it is illegal. Like I said, there's just not enough to feed everybody's needs. The average gas station has about 4, 30,000 gallon tanks and recieves a 10,000 gallon fuel delivery at least daily. 1 Gas station. Not even remotely comparable to all the fast food joints in a town.

Fuel getting thick when cold is a serious downside, that's why they add chemical additives to diesel fuels. So in colder climates it won't gel. That adds to pollutants. If it gels because of temp, it won't run.

Diesel is a very dirty burning fuel. One of the worst actually. It produces more pollutants than gas. It also does not have the same 'clean' laws that gas powered vehicles have to follow such as catalytic convertors.

Diesel burns, gas ignites. Ever see diesel on fire? Black sooty mess. Ever see gas on fire? Not half as much black sooty mess. In an internal combustion engine, the 'hotter' the fuel, the cleaner the burn and more power. That's why they refine diesel into gas, and add octane boosters to gas. That's also what Nitrous does to gas. A cleaner hotter burning fuel.

Consider that your 15 gallon tank on your car is full. 15 x 7lbs per gallon = 105 pounds. 15 gallons of liquid hydrogen weighs about 7.5 pounds. You're saving 97.5 pounds of weight on your vehicle. That translates into more HP/torque. Refueling the hydrogen tank on your car could be done the same exact way you refill it now with gas. You never see the gas you pump. The nozzle would be replaced with a single point type of nozzle, like they use to refill propane tanks or liquid gas tanks.

As for creating hydrogen, you need to electrocute water. A bit of a simple answer, but if you electrify water, you will start producing hydrogen. (Actually, when you charge wet cell batteries, you create hydrogen. It's one of the biggest hazards charging a battery indoors. You're a mechanic, you need to know that for your safety.)

The problem is there is no commitment to revamping our energy system. Instead of looking for viable and renewable sources. The focus goes to 'feel good' solutions. Battery is not the answer, it's a tiny step, but it still gets powered by oil when you charge it. It's just masking the oil consumption. You will pay to charge your car at home by using more power at your home, which you still pay for. That puts more drain on the grid, which causes the grid to consume more oil.

You need to create and alternative to the grid. Hydrogen is viable, but lacks the commitment, because the world wants you on oil. (Hydrogen is also the most common element in the universe.) They have more power and money that way.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

The world is 80% covered in water.....no problem getting Hydrogen.

That is why it is called H2O....the H stands for Hydrogen.

 

[13aceofspades13]

Hydrogen is not a hydrocarbon. When you burn it you make water. There is almost zero pollution from burning hydrogen.

Fast food joints do not dump the oil. They also only change it (5-10 gallons) once evey week or so. They sell the used oil to recyclers. Dumping it is illegal. Like I said, there's just not enough to feed everybody's needs. The average gas station has about 4, 30,000 gallon tanks and recieves a 10,000 gallon fuel delivery at least daily. 1 Gas station. Not even remotely comparable to all the fast food joints in a town.

Fuel getting thick when cold is a serious downside, that's why they add chemical additives to diesel fuels. So in colder climates it won't gel. That adds to pollutants. If it gels because of temp, it won't run.

Diesel is a very dirty burning fuel. One of the worst actually. It produces more pollutants than gas. It also does not have the same 'clean' laws that gas powered vehicles have to follow such as catalytic convertors.

Diesel burns, gas ignites. Ever see diesel on fire? Black sooty mess. Ever see gas on fire? Not half as much black sooty mess. In an internal combustion engine, the 'hotter' the fuel, the cleaner the burn and more power. That's why they refine diesel into gas, and add octane boosters to gas. That's also what Nitrous does to gas. A cleaner hotter burning fuel.

Consider that your 15 gallon tank on your car is full. 15 x 7lbs per gallon = 105 pounds. 15 gallons of liquid hydrogen weighs about 7.5 pounds. You're saving 97.5 pounds of weight on your vehicle. That translates into more HP/torque. Refueling the hydrogen tank on your car could be done the same exact way you refill it now with gas. You never see the gas you pump. The nozzle would be replaced with a single point type of nozzle, like they use to refill propane tanks or liquid gas tanks.

As for creating hydrogen, you need to electrocute water. A bit of a simple answer, but if you electrify water, you will start producing hydrogen. (Actually, when you charge wet cell batteries, you create hydrogen. It's one of the biggest hazards charging a battery indoors. You're a mechanic, you need to know that for your safety.)

The problem is there is no commitment to revamping our energy system. Instead of looking for viable and renewable sources. The focus goes to 'feel good' solutions. Battery is not the answer, it's a tiny step, but it still gets powered by oil when you charge it. It's just masking the oil consumption. You will pay to charge your car at home by using more power at your home, which you still pay for. That puts more drain on the grid, which causes the grid to consume more oil.

You need to create and alternative to the grid. Hydrogen is viable, but lacks the commitment, because the world wants you on oil. (Hydrogen is also the most common element in the universe.) They have more power and money that way.

i knew hidragen has no hidrocarbons, if i remember correctly hydrogen consists of one electron, one proton, Hydrogen is a single element all buy itself, unlike gasoline which is a mixture of different atoms.

diesel burns cleaner than gasoline, a lot of that black smoke is just soot which falls back to earth, unlike hydrocarbons which fill the earths atmosphere. its cleaner burning, and Biodiesel burns even cleaner beacuse of fewer hydrocarbons since it is not a petroleum based product, its inconvenience of jelling up when its cold however is a issue that cannot be ignored, however it can be remedied buy heating the fuel tank, or adding additives.

yes hidrogen is lighter, much lighter, however making your vehicle lighter does not translate to more horsepower and torque it just translates to a better torque to weight ratio, and horsepower to weight ratio... which in the end yes means a more efficient vehicle anyhow.

and what about range? i remember seeing this vehicle that needed to travel long distances, cant remember how far, but it was far enough that a ordinary vehicle needed only to fill up once or so. the vehicle had several welder sized tanks, and i mean oxygen tanks or larger, full of hydrogen in the back of the truck bed just to go far enough, i think the weight from the tanks adds up there, i think five or six tanks where present. i think a hydrogen car would work just fine in Europe, or in other smaller countries, but larger countries like the United States i could see some issues, where some people drive for hours every single day to go to work, but that kind of beats your fuel jelling up if it does not have antifreeze additives or if it is not heated

in addition, im aware of the fact when you charge a car battery, Hydrogen is created, very aware, this is why you connect ground last, to prevent spark from occurring anywhere near the charging battery. i think we had a battery explode once.. that was before i was in the class, i was reminded of that very frequently, in both classes, in my heartlands Diesel class, and my MCTI auto class, it was reviewed heavily, it was also in both tests a question you had to answer correctly. and in both saftey tests in Hearleands, and MCTI i passed the final tests with 100% scores, so yea i am very aware of my saftey.

i understand Biodiesel has its downsides, but so does Hydrogen, it is not perfect, it has its limitations.

 

[Gundamhead]

13, I'm not trying to offend, I know the world is not going to go to Hydrogen. I used to like the sound of biodiesel. Something we already have some of, (but far too little for what we consume). But in general, it's just a bad dirty used band aid for our fuel demands.
Hydrogen is just what I consider to be the best future for our fuel demands and our population growth for this world. We're at 7 billion now, and the number increases exponensionally yearly. The math is simple, our time as a race short. We will consume our pown planet unless we change, or we wipe many of ourselves out of existence. Either way, there will be change to bring balance. I'd rather it was 'us' who decide and not Mother Nature.
Hydrogen. It's clean, and limitless in supply. (Number one in abundance in the universe, it's what fuels every star and is kicking around even in the great voids in between galaxies.) It's also relatively easy to be made adaptable to run in our current infrastructure system within 10 years if we wanted. But the world would have to want to think ahead to future benefit of future generations, and present humans in general are nothing if not lazy and selfish.
I don't know what you mean about range. It has nothing to do with Europe, or America, or Africa, or Asia, or any place in the world. MPG? That's not an issue. It's as good as the engine lets it be, just like any engine that runs on any fuel right now. Hydrogen should actually be better because it is so much cleaner and hotter than any petrol. You can get 100 MPG in a scooter, or 1/4 MPG in racing engine. It has very little to do with the fuel. But generally, it'd be similar to what you get now, because that's what people expect. It'd be better but people tend to be sheeple though. (We should be expecting and demanding newer cars running on gas alone that average 50+ MPG, but that's another discussion.)
Current electric cars/hybrids are the bad and sad feel good joke. They lack any real range, or means of recharging. You are still consuming fuel everytime you plug your car in. Too boot, they consume almost as much fuel, and have a much higher toxic footprint. Also, the batteries need to be replaced within a few years. (There's no money saved for not consuming gas.) Yet sheeple bought the idea of 'saving the planet' (they aren't) and that is what we got stuck with now.
Picture a hydrogen/electric hybrid instead. It could make some of it's own hydrogen fuel to power it's battery by charging the water it creates from it's exhaust. Then let's talk MPG...
The battery exploding...That's why the caps have to be left open during charging. (Watch the RC plane LN link to get an idea of the forces for gas build up, and that's only a soda bottle and LN, now change that to caustic/lead/plastic and 20 times the force.) That's the safety for gas pressures, not fire when charging.
But with the caps open, and say you were a bit of a dope and decided to charge your batteries in closet, the hydrogen will rise and fill the closet space, then you click the light on and boom you go in a ball of fire. That's why big shops have a dedicated battery room. It vents to the atmosphere outside all the time so no gas builds up in the room during charges. It's also one of those tragic things we'll be reading about in the future from people who build their own solar/wind electric supplies. Somebody will stack their cells in a an enclosed room and blow themselves up.

 

[13aceofspades13]

13, I'm not trying to offend, I know the world is not going to go to Hydrogen. I used to like the sound of biodiesel. Something we already have some of, (but far too little for what we consume). But in general, it's just a bad dirty used band aid for our fuel demands.
Hydrogen is just what I consider to be the best future for our fuel demands and our population growth for this world. We're at 7 billion now, and the number increases exponensionally yearly. The math is simple, our time as a race short. We will consume our pown planet unless we change, or we wipe many of ourselves out of existence. Either way, there will be change to bring balance. I'd rather it was 'us' who decide and not Mother Nature.
Hydrogen. It's clean, and limitless in supply. (Number one in abundance in the universe, it's what fuels every star and is kicking around even in the great voids in between galaxies.) It's also relatively easy to be made adaptable to run in our current infrastructure system within 10 years if we wanted. But the world would have to want to think ahead to future benefit of future generations, and present humans in general are nothing if not lazy and selfish.
I don't know what you mean about range. It has nothing to do with Europe, or America, or Africa, or Asia, or any place in the world. MPG? That's not an issue. It's as good as the engine lets it be, just like any engine that runs on any fuel right now. Hydrogen should actually be better because it is so much cleaner and hotter than any petrol. You can get 100 MPG in a scooter, or 1/4 MPG in racing engine. It has very little to do with the fuel. But generally, it'd be similar to what you get now, because that's what people expect. It'd be better but people tend to be sheeple though. (We should be expecting and demanding newer cars running on gas alone that average 50+ MPG, but that's another discussion.)
Current electric cars/hybrids are the bad and sad feel good joke. They lack any real range, or means of recharging. You are still consuming fuel everytime you plug your car in. Too boot, they consume almost as much fuel, and have a much higher toxic footprint. Also, the batteries need to be replaced within a few years. (There's no money saved for not consuming gas.) Yet sheeple bought the idea of 'saving the planet' (they aren't) and that is what we got stuck with now.
Picture a hydrogen/electric hybrid instead. It could make some of it's own hydrogen fuel to power it's battery by charging the water it creates from it's exhaust. Then let's talk MPG...
The battery exploding...That's why the caps have to be left open during charging. (Watch the RC plane LN link to get an idea of the forces for gas build up, and that's only a soda bottle and LN, now change that to caustic/lead/plastic and 20 times the force.) That's the safety for gas pressures, not fire when charging.
But with the caps open, and say you were a bit of a dope and decided to charge your batteries in closet, the hydrogen will rise and fill the closet space, then you click the light on and boom you go in a ball of fire. That's why big shops have a dedicated battery room. It vents to the atmosphere outside all the time so no gas builds up in the room during charges. It's also one of those tragic things we'll be reading about in the future from people who build their own solar/wind electric supplies. Somebody will stack their cells in a an enclosed room and blow themselves up.

you do not offend me, its fine, i understand, you guys are right, perhaps biodiesel is not the best future fuel, but what i am saying is Hydrogen has its kinks too... what i meant buy range is how far you can go on one tank of hydrogen before you have to re fuel. like i said this guy had 5 or 6 oxygen welder sized tanks filled with hydrogen just to drive from a few states to another.

yea... our shop does not have a specific place reserved just for batteries, but i do remember reading about that and hearing about that in my studies. we usually charge batteries in the shop, but we are very cautious about that, and i always discipline myself, always connect the negative terminal last... and as far away from the battery as possible. in fact we don't even plug in the charger untill everything is set up properly, same for disconnecting the system, nothing is done until the charger is off and un plugged. safety first.

 

[Grendels]

Yes range is an issue with Hydrogen, for now anyhow. The maximum efficiency of a gasoline engine is around 14% while with hydrogen, they have had results near 40% efficiency. There is a lot of smart people working on this, someone will figure it out and range will no longer be an issue then. Just give them time....

 

[Gundamhead]

I'm not sure what you saw. But like I said, it would depend entirely on the engine. On average though, you'd expect hydrogen to be better than a current cars range. Somewhere at least around 300+ miles. UPS runs it's fleet on propane, maybe they 'junkyard mechaniced' an old propane engine? I can pretty much gaurantee it wasn't a engine professionally set to run on hydrogen though.

Anyway, a true hydrogen designed engine, would be different than a air breathing gasoline engine. It would be similar to a propane engine. Look at forklifts designed for propane, but then subtract the exhaust. Hydrogen is going to need a new way of handling exhaust.

 

[13aceofspades13]

I'm not sure what you saw. But like I said, it would depend entirely on the engine. On average though, you'd expect hydrogen to be better than a current cars range. Somewhere at least around 300+ miles. UPS runs it's fleet on propane, maybe they 'junkyard mechaniced' an old propane engine? I can pretty much gaurantee it wasn't a engine professionally set to run on hydrogen though.

Anyway, a true hydrogen designed engine, would be different than a air breathing gasoline engine. It would be similar to a propane engine. Look at forklifts designed for propane, but then subtract the exhaust. Hydrogen is going to need a new way of handling exhaust.

thats a good point, as oxidization could... become a issue, is one of the only bi products of burning hydrogen is mostly hot water, then again hot water and stean become a cleaning agent. unless you count some of the motor oils that get into the combustion chamber. and as long as your piston rings and valve stems and other parts are good, the engine could stay very clean for a very long time!

hydrogen burns very thero, however it gets used very quickly beacuse its already in its natural gas state, while Gasoline and Diesel fuel are in a liquid state, and are vaporized, or carbonated. i think in this case they would get used much slower. but im not sure, it all depends.

 

[Grendels]

To get that 40% efficiency they are not burning the Hydrogen, but running it through a fuel cell. The fuel cell converts the Hydrogen and oxygen from the air directly to water, with no heat generated, while producing electricity. They then use the electricity to drive an electric motor. This is quite a ways off, the technology for fuel cells just isn't here yet. They are far too expensive to make.

 

[13aceofspades13]

To get that 40% efficiency they are not burning the Hydrogen, but running it through a fuel cell. The fuel cell converts the Hydrogen and oxygen from the air directly to water, with no heat generated, while producing electricity. They then use the electricity to drive an electric motor. This is quite a ways off, the technology for fuel cells just isn't here yet. They are far too expensive to make.

are you telling me they are creating energy without creating heat? :-\ and taking hidrogen and oxygen and putting them together makes a electric charge or current?

 

[Grendels]

are you telling me they are creating energy without creating heat? :-\ and taking hidrogen and oxygen and putting them together makes a electric charge or current?

A fuel cell uses a catalyst to combine Hydrogen and Oxygen together to make water. The by product of this is electricity. There is some heat generated, but not like combustion would do. No where near the heat. That is why it is more efficient, it is taking the heat out and converting it straight to electricity.

 

[Mr.Crowley]

Hahahaha. Just looked at that for the first time.

Do you know what the smart cars remind me off.
When I was a small boy, there was a small windup car called a penny racer, exactly the same shape as a smart car. There was a slot in the back to place a penny in (up against the back window) to give it extra weight, and make it do wheelies, hours of fun when you are young. It's just some people haven't grown up enough and still they try and design a car, look what happened there. Has anyone tried to role one over yet? is it safer than the old citereon.

 

[Gundamhead]

I can't stand the idea that it every new car has to have AC, phone, PW, 27 airbags, PL, automatic, cruise control, DVD, highend sound sytem, GPS, power seats, alarm, alloy rims, ground effects, ABS, and whatever extra of the moment. Why not offer cheap base line models people can afford again? Did I mention all those extras consume more fuel?

 

[Grendels]

Gundamhead:

One thing to consider is that car manufacturers are here to make money. If those extras won't sell, then they don't make money. The problem is most people want those extras. If they didn't, the car would not come with them.

AC for one is not an option here in Texas. It was 93F here today, and it isn't suppose to drop below that daily temp until October. Now if only I could do away with that heater option.........

 

[13aceofspades13]

I can't stand the idea that it every new car has to have AC, phone, PW, 27 airbags, PL, automatic, cruise control, DVD, highend sound sytem, GPS, power seats, alarm, alloy rims, ground effects, ABS, and whatever extra of the moment. Why not offer cheap base line models people can afford again? Did I mention all those extras consume more fuel?

dude i was just talking about this on facebook and i agree with you 100%, there is too much crap in cars, dont forget heated and cooled seats, why???, do it like the 60s nice and simple, all these extra features just jack up the price of the car... and require more energy to run all these features, which means more resistance on the engine, which means reduced performance and fuel economy. i would buy a car where its only accessory was a small radio, beacuse thats the only accessory i care for. everything ells can go screw.... DVD players, GPS, Air Bags, Air Conditioning, Heated Cooled seats, Major stereo systems which require amps of energy to run, ABS, Power seats, Power windows, Millions of cup holders, Integrated cigarette lighters, tuns of interior lighting, all the buttons and knobs and lights to run all this crap, fancy passenger climate control, all this stupid fancy interior crap, traction control, Govenors, black boxes, Emmitions control, Alarms, cruse control, AUTOMATIC PARRELELL PARKING WTF IS THIS GARBADGE!!! just give me a nice car, with some get up and go... and a nice small simple radio that you can put a CD in and plug your MP3 in and im happy dude! wow... what really makes me sick is they offer a GPS in a Corvette, WTF DUDE!!!

when i was in High school we where asked to design a car... that ran on a alternative fuel, for fun i picked Ethenall, but i also designed one that ran of Biodiesel, and Hidrogen, and Electric. but the car didn't even have a radio, it was a small little two seat car, with a little 200HP in line 4, the car weighed under 2,000LB it was a little larger than a smart car but a lot more heavily constructed, i called it the Minny Max.

may i also add that i don't mind aluminum wheels beacuse they save weight which makes vehicles more efficient and improve performance, however... we don't need to get all fancy dancy with it, just leave the fancy bullcrap for Buick, Cadillac, and Rolls Royce....

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Actually alot of the stuff you guys say is junk.....actually makes the car safer.

ABS, airbags, traction control.....crumple zones, etc, etc.

PW, cruise, AC, PL....yes it puts the price of the car up some, but usually comes in a package on the vehicle for under $1200 extra, a small cost compared to the rest of the vehicle (other than maybe the AC tax in most states and provinces), and with the advantages of lightweight materials, the weight difference for the car isn't much, and the difference in gas consumption is negligible. Just go to a dealer and look at the cars, find a car with, and without those simple options above, with the same motor and transmission, and I bet you will find little to no difference in the EPA fuel mileage (EPA mileage doesn't take into account using AC while driving, just the added weight of the items in the car, we all know that using your AC reduces your mileage).

Complain about the options, but much the same could be said about the engines in the cars....why do we need a 600hp, gas guzzler big V8 in a Corvette, when we can have a fuel efficient V6 that still puts out over 300hp? I have a friend that has a 2010 Mustang, with the V6....305HP and still gets 35mpg, and looking at the car with the wheels, paint and stripe package he got, the only thing that gives away that it is a V6 is that it only has one tailpipe instead of 2, but despite the V6, it still goes like a bat out of hell!

As far as AC...even up here in the Great White North, you can have my AC when you pry it out of my cold, dead fingers!

 

[13aceofspades13]

Actually alot of the stuff you guys say is junk.....actually makes the car safer.

ABS, airbags, traction control.....crumple zones, etc, etc.

PW, cruise, AC, PL....yes it puts the price of the car up some, but usually comes in a package on the vehicle for under $1200 extra, a small cost compared to the rest of the vehicle (other than maybe the AC tax in most states and provinces), and with the advantages of lightweight materials, the weight difference for the car isn't much, and the difference in gas consumption is negligible. Just go to a dealer and look at the cars, find a car with, and without those simple options above, with the same motor and transmission, and I bet you will find little to no difference in the EPA fuel mileage (EPA mileage doesn't take into account using AC while driving, just the added weight of the items in the car, we all know that using your AC reduces your mileage).

Complain about the options, but much the same could be said about the engines in the cars....why do we need a 600hp, gas guzzler big V8 in a Corvette, when we can have a fuel efficient V6 that still puts out over 300hp? I have a friend that has a 2010 Mustang, with the V6....305HP and still gets 35mpg, and looking at the car with the wheels, paint and stripe package he got, the only thing that gives away that it is a V6 is that it only has one tailpipe instead of 2, but despite the V6, it still goes like a bat out of hell!

As far as AC...even up here in the Great White North, you can have my AC when you pry it out of my cold, dead fingers!

as i said the fancy features are good for luxury cars, as a 638hp V8 is good for a top of the line super car, i guess you make a point, but still the features consume energy and up the price of the car major.

 

[13aceofspades13]

Two words, public transport.

Any long-term solution to a decrease in pollution and an increase in fuel efficiency needs to remove single-person-transport solutions from the equation. As soon as you do that things get a lot easier to deal with.

Anything else is just polishing the brass on the Titanic.

Jingles

the issue here is, people like there cars, people want there own car, beacuse they like cars, i want my own car to have, it gives me a feeling of being able to do things myself at my own convenience without having to get into a bus full of people i don't know at there own time tables. i can leave my house and get to wherever i want to go when i want with whome i want. a large majority of the pollution created is not from the automobile, its from factories, and power plants, cutting pollution form automobiles is just a small portion of the picture, a lot of the factories and power plants going like in china have no emmition control, which allow them to pump as much smog in the air as they please.

in addition, you remove private transportation from the equation, and i don't think thats a good idea in itself compleetly, what about people who got a education or are getting a education like myself fixing private owned cars. if the number of private owned cars go down, people lose jobs, those trying to get one find it harder to do so, the dealerships trying to sell those cars find it harder, the factories making those cars for the dealerships have less cars to make, which leaves out more jobs, then the people making the parts for the cars find less jobs too... and i bet bottom dollar if the jobs start going down, there going to start cutting down jobs here in favor for cheaper labor in china and Mexico.

 

[Gundamhead]

Two words, public transport.

Any long-term solution to a decrease in pollution and an increase in fuel efficiency needs to remove single-person-transport solutions from the equation. As soon as you do that things get a lot easier to deal with.

Anything else is just polishing the brass on the Titanic.

Jingles

Except, there is none in rural areas. If there is, it's usaually on a 12hr cycle... 12 hours waiting to go to and from work, is not going to happen. This is a big world.

 

[Grendels]

Especially here in Texas. Most of it was developed in the 60's. (It was too hot down here for most people, until the home AC unit became cost effective. Once that happened people started to move here.) Since most of the infrastructure was built up then, and Texas has a lot of land. Nothing was built close together. I remember being in High School and Mom had to drive 15 miles to a grocery store. It isn't like that today, but public transportation wouldn't work there. I know I cannot get public transportation from my house to work unless I call a cab. It just doesn't exist in this small town.