I really want to like Vallejo paints

[RockyD88]

First thing I want to say is Vallejo model color brushes better than any acrylic I have ever used and has a very wide range of colors to choose from so that's a plus for me. it will from now on be my go to for detail painting.

Airbrushing is another story...I have sacrificed tons of plastic and time trying to dial in the thinner to paint mix to get this stuff to spray I have been monkeying with thinners and air pressure for days. I thin it down 1:3 like everyone says and it clogs my brush time after time, I try thinning it more and its way too thin.

I thought it was because I was using a new airbrush...so I loaded up some Tamiya paint thinned 50/50 and it sprayed great zero clogs and left a nice smooth finish, unlike the Vallejo which was either grainy or too thin.

I haven't tried the model air line yet but am going to pick some up tomorrow to see how they treat me from what I gather they are for the most part idiotproof which is perfect for me

 

[urumomo]

One important thing about their Model Color is that it is very inconsistent in viscosity between colors .

You will need to mix each color with different amounts of thinner for airbrushing and only experience will get you there

I'm personally not too impressed with the Model Air line and own only a couple of bottles .
I can buy the Model Color @ my local Hobby Lobby but not the Model Air .
... don't be shocked if you need to thin the Model Air


What are you using to thin it ?
What pressure are you spraying at ?


It took me a while to get consistent , good results with the airbrush and it's still an issue .

All acrylics dry quickly but Vallejo's dry particularly fast .
I'm currently using Testor's air-brush thinner and it seems to work well --- no issues yet .

Cheers ,
Uru

 

[RockyD88]

Thanx for the reply, I have used several thinners ISO/water mix, windex both of which were epic fails more than likely because of the alcohol the best result I have had was distilled water and a little food grade vegetable glycerine, I know that I would possibly have better results with vallejos thinner and retarder but the price is a little ridiculous IMO and I would still have the inconsistent thinning problems also its hard to find locally.

as far as my air pressure it has been all over the place anywhere from 15-25 psi (according to my regulator)too low and it wont push paint too high and it sprays too dry, if I thin it to run the lower pressure it is too thin and pools and runs.

I guess I am used to the Tamiya paints...50/50 mix, set pressure at 18-20 psi and spray, works pretty much every time, but I don't like the limited colors offered by Tamiya and they are not the best for hand brushing, that's why I really want to figure out the Vallejo paints

 

[urumomo]

Straight distilled water works well ( tap water is plenty good too - usually ) - , as you have found out -- mix in very small amounts at a time as it makes a huge difference .

I never go above 14-15 psi on my airbrush .
Regardless of the tip size . I thin to get it to perform properly .

It sounds like you're just using way too much or too little thinner ( I can't recommend the glycerin )
It takes very little and like I said : add the water by the drop -- don't add more until the water is fully incorporated .

One really important thing with those little Vallejo Model Color bottles is you need to make sure they are fully mixed .
I open and stir each one with a stick really well before I add a 'shaker' something
( another thread on that -- http://www.scalemodeladdict.com/SMF/index.php/topic,12840.0.html )


Hang in there --

It took me a lot of trial and error -- with all the joyful problems you have described -- but I've figured them out a good bit .


I paid 4 bucks for the Testors airbrush thinner at Hobby Lobby and I'm guessing it should last me the rest of the year - easy


Cheers ,
Uru

 

[RockyD88]

when you say 14-15 psi is that operating pressure or tank pressure? if I set my regulator at 18 psi and pull my trigger it drops to around 14 or 15 psi,I have always been confused about that when people talk about pressure.

I do understand what you are saying about thinning I may be going from one extreme to the next and that's possibly why I am having problems.

as far as mixing I will take your advice, I think this paint has a tendency to separate and needs more than shaking to get a nice creamy mix.

I do think Vallejo puts out a great product...brushes with a little thinning ,dropper bottels for easy paint color mixing and a very wide range of colors.....but its hard to airbrush

 

[urumomo]

Operating pressure at the trigger .

What type AB are you using ?

Needle size ?

 

[RockyD88]

my airbrush is an Iwata neo gravity feed with a 3.0 needle

 

[urumomo]

Yeah - you should be good down around 13-14 psi . 15 -16 psi is pretty nominal for most gravity feeds . I started thinking you might be using a siphon-feed when you said 25 psi ;D



If you have the pressure too low and it's thinned correctly , or close to it , you won't get good atomization even though the paint will spray .,..
.. and you'll get the droplets and ponding - behaving like it's thinned too much . Increasing the pressure will solve it -- but ??? depends on the pressure you're already at .

Unfortunately it just takes trial and error -- but you'll get the feel of the paints after a while .

Definitely open the bottles and pull that pour-spout out of the way and mix it up .
You'll be surprised how ' not mixed ' a ' mixed ' bottle will be . .. how much solids are parked on the bottom
& these Model Color vary by color so you won't have an across-the-board mix ratio for thinner .

...... just shaking the bottle to mix it -- without a shaker-ball and preferably stirring it well prior to adding the 'ball' - does pretty much nothing .


Hope this helps ;D

 

[urumomo]

Recommend : http://www.testors.com/product-catalog/testors-brands/aztek/airbrushable-acrylic-paint/cleaners-and-thinners

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

Honestly, instead of monkeying around with a bunch of other thinner types, go buy a bottle of the stuff that is designed to work with the paint. Vallejo Airbrush Thinner.

The saying of "Right Tool, Right Job" comes to mind here.

Start at a 50/50 mix, and work from there, as Urumom said, not every bottle of Model Color is the same consistency as some bottles take more or less pigment, to create the colors. Mix it in something else, not in your airbrush, as if you start out with too thick of a ratio, it is just going to bugger up the needle and no matter what you do, will make it hard to spray.

Preferably mix it in something clear, so you can see the paint run off the side of the container, and as I said, start at 50/50, and adjust until it looks about the opaqueness of skim milk.

The Vallejo AB thinner will thin the paint and adds a small amount of retarder to it as well so as not to dry before it reaches your model.

18psi is fine if you are doing just general work, if you are free handing camo and such, you will need to thin it slightly more, and drop your airpressure down some, so you can get closer to the model to spray.

While the Model Color is more designed for brush painting, it can be thinned, but have a look at the Model Air, pre-thinned in the bottle for airbrush, mix it up and pour in, no muss, no fuss. I do add a couple of drops (no more than 10% of your total mixture) of the AB thinner, as it breaks the surface tension of the paint, and makes it flow better than straight from the bottle, however...you don't have to do this. I have just found over the years of using both lines, that it help the paint to flow from the airbrush, and gives a better finish on the model.

Do not use ISP or Windex or similar with the Model Color paints, they are not alcohol based, and will actually gel the paint in your airbrush, and isn't fun to clean out. In the Model Air it is ok, as it lacks the vinyl additive that the Model Color has, that reacts with the alcohol.

Been using Vallejo for going on about 10-11yrs and have been selling it for the last 9yrs, and have never had an issue using them, but the 2 biggest complaints I see is:

1. the paint doesn't stick to the plastic. And it won't, as it is an acrylic, and acrylics don't have the chemicals to bite into the plastic to make them stick, so you need to put them over a primer coat of some sort.
2. the paint won't thin (in the case of the Model Color or Game Color), and the #1 reason why it won't thin, is because people are usually using everything but the product they should be, Vallejo Airbrush Thinner.

 

[RockyD88]

Thanks for all the help guys, it is much appreciated.

I do have a bottle of the testors thinner that I use for MM paints, tried it out tonight it seemed to thin the paint better than my water mix and wasn't as dry, but it still clogged my tip but not as bad as the water/glycerin so it is better.properly mixing the paint made a big difference too

I did find a local shop (Table top minis) that stocks pretty much every product that Vallejo makes so I am going to pick up a bottle of the Vallejo thinner as well as a couple model air to try them out.

as far as the paint lifting without primer I haven't experienced that yet. I usually prime bigger models but rarely do I prime 1/72nd aircraft so I don't lose the limited detail that they have, my test pieces without primer have stuck pretty good but I do want to try the Vallejo primer because it has a lot of different colors

 

[Cave_Dweller]

I do like the finish of Vallejo paints, but they have given me a lot of troubles too recently. To the point where I don't want to use them.

1. Tearing off of primered surfaces when I mask. I use automotive primer, which usually works great, but sometimes when I do a mask, the tape will tear the vallejo paint beneath it. Maybe I need longer curing time for the paint? I usually give it 12 hrs or so. 24 hrs? 48 hrs?

2. EXTREME problems with paint drying in the needle. Like, constantly, infuriatingly fast tip drying. I've tried vallejo thinner, purified water, nothing really helps. This paint just dries too fast to work with sometimes. I have to keep a toothbrush handy to constantly clean off the paint that oozes out around the tip of the needle I've found that I can't use the pre-thinned vallejo air without adding additional thinner, or it will clog my brush every single time.

Also, using this paint seems to require a full brush breakdown if I'm using a lot of the paint, say more than 2 cup fulls. I won't be able to reliably switch to another color without cleaning my brush thoroughly.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

I do like the finish of Vallejo paints, but they have given me a lot of troubles too recently. To the point where I don't want to use them.

1. Tearing off of primered surfaces when I mask. I use automotive primer, which usually works great, but sometimes when I do a mask, the tape will tear the vallejo paint beneath it. Maybe I need longer curing time for the paint? I usually give it 12 hrs or so. 24 hrs? 48 hrs?

2. EXTREME problems with paint drying in the needle. Like, constantly, infuriatingly fast tip drying. I've tried vallejo thinner, purified water, nothing really helps. This paint just dries too fast to work with sometimes. I have to keep a toothbrush handy to constantly clean off the paint that oozes out around the tip of the needle I've found that I can't use the pre-thinned vallejo air without adding additional thinner, or it will clog my brush every single time.

Also, using this paint seems to require a full brush breakdown if I'm using a lot of the paint, say more than 2 cup fulls. I won't be able to reliably switch to another color without cleaning my brush thoroughly.

What airpressure are you running? The Vallejo thinner has some retarder/flow improver in it, but they also make a flow improver for adding to the paint to keep it from drying.

For the Model Air paints, I add a touch of thinner (maybe 1 drop of thinner to 5 drops of paint), not so much to thin it, but the thinner breaks the surface tension of the paint, and helps it flow much better.

12hrs, not enough cure time. 24-48hrs is better.

I don't have an issue switching colors, dump and clean what is left of paint in the cup, and run AB cleaner through until it is mostly running clear. Put in new color and go. Can do a color change in about 30secs usually.

I rarely ever break my airbrush down to fully clean it, unless I am using Vallejo Primer, and you almost have to. End of the day or the week, I might take out the needle and take the nozzle off and run a brush through it soaked in AB Cleaner. Only time I have broken it down more than that was to change the needle seal.

 

[f2k]

I've had much the same issues with Vallejo paints.

For example, I've lately been painting some Ultramarines for Epic 40.000. And I pretty much have to take my airbrush completely apart and run it though my ultrasonic cleaner after every cup of Ultramarine paint.

Doesn't seem to matter much what pressure I use or how much I thin the paint, it still clogs the nozzle within seconds.

I started by thinning the paint with distilled water. Lately I've been experimenting with adding flow aid and drying retarder agents as well. The drying retarder in particular seems to help with the buildup of paint on the needle and within the nozzle.

Still clogs before I can get through a single cup though... :'(

I'm wondering if it's not just down to the varying thickness of each paint (sometimes even from bottle to bottle), but also somehow tied to the size of the pigment in the paint. I've noticed that some paints are much worse than others in this regard.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

I've had much the same issues with Vallejo paints.

For example, I've lately been painting some Ultramarines for Epic 40.000. And I pretty much have to take my airbrush completely apart and run it though my ultrasonic cleaner after every cup of Ultramarine paint.

Doesn't seem to matter much what pressure I use or how much I thin the paint, it still clogs the nozzle within seconds.

I started by thinning the paint with distilled water. Lately I've been experimenting with adding flow aid and drying retarder agents as well. The drying retarder in particular seems to help with the buildup of paint on the needle and within the nozzle.

Still clogs before I can get through a single cup though... :'(

I'm wondering if it's not just down to the varying thickness of each paint (sometimes even from bottle to bottle), but also somehow tied to the size of the pigment in the paint. I've noticed that some paints are much worse than others in this regard.

Which line of paint? Model Color and Game Color while can be thinned to be airbrushed, there is no hard and fast rule as to how much to thin them as each bottle of paint has a different consistency due to the amount of pigments needed to be used to create the color.

Model Air, or Game Air, they are all pretty much the same from bottle to bottle as they are designed from the outset to be airbrushed.

If you have to use a color from the Model Color or Game Color range, I suggest a starting thinning ratio of 5 parts thinner to 1 part paint, and go from there.

As far as distilled water goes, ditch it. Cheap yes, but will give you nothing but problems. Use the thinner designed for the paint (which there is a picture above) and your airbrushing sessions will be more enjoyable.

 

[f2k]

I've had much the same issues with Vallejo paints.

For example, I've lately been painting some Ultramarines for Epic 40.000. And I pretty much have to take my airbrush completely apart and run it though my ultrasonic cleaner after every cup of Ultramarine paint.

Doesn't seem to matter much what pressure I use or how much I thin the paint, it still clogs the nozzle within seconds.

I started by thinning the paint with distilled water. Lately I've been experimenting with adding flow aid and drying retarder agents as well. The drying retarder in particular seems to help with the buildup of paint on the needle and within the nozzle.

Still clogs before I can get through a single cup though... :'(

I'm wondering if it's not just down to the varying thickness of each paint (sometimes even from bottle to bottle), but also somehow tied to the size of the pigment in the paint. I've noticed that some paints are much worse than others in this regard.

Which line of paint? Model Color and Game Color while can be thinned to be airbrushed, there is no hard and fast rule as to how much to thin them as each bottle of paint has a different consistency due to the amount of pigments needed to be used to create the color.

Model Air, or Game Air, they are all pretty much the same from bottle to bottle as they are designed from the outset to be airbrushed.

If you have to use a color from the Model Color or Game Color range, I suggest a starting thinning ratio of 5 parts thinner to 1 part paint, and go from there.

As far as distilled water goes, ditch it. Cheap yes, but will give you nothing but problems. Use the thinner designed for the paint (which there is a picture above) and your airbrushing sessions will be more enjoyable.

Sorry... Me bad... Should have mentioned that it's Vallejo Model Color.

I've started buying some Model Air paints, hoping that it will make it easier to do a proper job on my FoW Germans.

As for thinner... Well... Truth to be told, I'm not convinced. The few times I've tried it, it didn't seem to be much better at keeping the paint from clogging the nozzle than distilled water. And it's WAY more expensive.

Might have to give it another shot though, 'cause this is driving me quite insane. :'(

Last night I gave it another shot - I need those Ultramarines painted... Well... Ultramarine...

The Ultramarine paint was really thick. And I do mean REALLY thick. Almost like the consistency of a heavy duty wall paint.

I added quite a bit of water, trying to thin it down. Then a few drops of retarder to stop it from drying too quickly. And yet, the nozzle started clogging almost immediately.

It was really obvious how less and less paint was coming through. And the spray-cone got smaller and smaller. In the end, I had to hold my airbrush within half an inch of the models in order to get any kind of paint on them.

After half a cup I was forced to stop, empty the cup, and take the whole thing apart.

Interestingly enough, the tip wasn't that bad. But the inside of the nozzle was full of really thick blue gunk, as was the channel leading up to the cup as well as the edge around the area where the air comes through. There must have been a fair bit of back-pressure from the nozzle, because I had blue paint, already starting to dry, all the way up to the trigger.

I got to spray for less than five minutes, but it took me almost half an hour stripping the airbrush down and getting the paint out of it.

It's as if the paint starts drying really quickly and then adheres to the the airbrush, quickly building up and clogging the nozzle. Because the gunk in the nozzle was quite a bit thicker than what I had in the cup.

 

[Elm City Hobbies]

I've had much the same issues with Vallejo paints.

For example, I've lately been painting some Ultramarines for Epic 40.000. And I pretty much have to take my airbrush completely apart and run it though my ultrasonic cleaner after every cup of Ultramarine paint.

Doesn't seem to matter much what pressure I use or how much I thin the paint, it still clogs the nozzle within seconds.

I started by thinning the paint with distilled water. Lately I've been experimenting with adding flow aid and drying retarder agents as well. The drying retarder in particular seems to help with the buildup of paint on the needle and within the nozzle.

Still clogs before I can get through a single cup though... :'(

I'm wondering if it's not just down to the varying thickness of each paint (sometimes even from bottle to bottle), but also somehow tied to the size of the pigment in the paint. I've noticed that some paints are much worse than others in this regard.

Which line of paint? Model Color and Game Color while can be thinned to be airbrushed, there is no hard and fast rule as to how much to thin them as each bottle of paint has a different consistency due to the amount of pigments needed to be used to create the color.

Model Air, or Game Air, they are all pretty much the same from bottle to bottle as they are designed from the outset to be airbrushed.

If you have to use a color from the Model Color or Game Color range, I suggest a starting thinning ratio of 5 parts thinner to 1 part paint, and go from there.

As far as distilled water goes, ditch it. Cheap yes, but will give you nothing but problems. Use the thinner designed for the paint (which there is a picture above) and your airbrushing sessions will be more enjoyable.

Sorry... Me bad... Should have mentioned that it's Vallejo Model Color.

I've started buying some Model Air paints, hoping that it will make it easier to do a proper job on my FoW Germans.

As for thinner... Well... Truth to be told, I'm not convinced. The few times I've tried it, it didn't seem to be much better at keeping the paint from clogging the nozzle than distilled water. And it's WAY more expensive.

Might have to give it another shot though, 'cause this is driving me quite insane. :'(

Last night I gave it another shot - I need those Ultramarines painted... Well... Ultramarine...

The Ultramarine paint was really thick. And I do mean REALLY thick. Almost like the consistency of a heavy duty wall paint.

I added quite a bit of water, trying to thin it down. Then a few drops of retarder to stop it from drying too quickly. And yet, the nozzle started clogging almost immediately.

It was really obvious how less and less paint was coming through. And the spray-cone got smaller and smaller. In the end, I had to hold my airbrush within half an inch of the models in order to get any kind of paint on them.

After half a cup I was forced to stop, empty the cup, and take the whole thing apart.

Interestingly enough, the tip wasn't that bad. But the inside of the nozzle was full of really thick blue gunk, as was the channel leading up to the cup as well as the edge around the area where the air comes through. There must have been a fair bit of back-pressure from the nozzle, because I had blue paint, already starting to dry, all the way up to the trigger.

I got to spray for less than five minutes, but it took me almost half an hour stripping the airbrush down and getting the paint out of it.

It's as if the paint starts drying really quickly and then adheres to the the airbrush, quickly building up and clogging the nozzle. Because the gunk in the nozzle was quite a bit thicker than what I had in the cup.

Yeah, it is because of the distilled water. It just doesn't have the ability to break the paint down properly to be able to atomize it to spray. With water, you are literally just diluting the paint, rather than thinning the paint. That may seem like semantics, but chemically, the airbrush thinner will mix with and break the paint down, so it sprays better than water that just dilutes the mixture. The AB thinner also has retarder in it to keep the paint from drying on the needle as much.

You probably won't find an Ultramarine color in the Model Air line, but would probably find something close enough. The Game Air line I believe either has a normal color that is ultramarine, or an ultramarine primer, for some reason I believe it is the latter as they added 2 new colors to the primer line when they released the Game Air line, that and silver I believe. Just too lazy to go check the catalog.

 

[JMac]

I've been using Vallejo Model Colours and Model Air paints exclusively for about 5 or 6 years now. I'm allergic to Tamiya paints, and since I share my modelling space with my families rec room, the "no smell" nature of Vallejos paints worked out perfect.

They do have a bit of a learning curve; but just to echo some of the advice that works for me (most of these points have already been mentioned by ECH, who gave me a ton of support when I first started out with VMC and VMA) - and the list below is in no particular order;

1. Use Vallejos thinners, (at least until you can get it spraying to your satisfaction). I thin all of my Vallejo paints using Vallejos thinners only. The ratio I use is 3 thinner : 1 Model Colour. For Model Air I use it straight out of the bottle, or slightly thinned, say 1 thinner: 4 or 5 paint.

2. Paint using low pressure (under 15 psi or 1 Bar). I usually set my regulator just under 15 psi. As mentioned earlier in the thread, some of the colours will have more or less viscosity when thinned, so I slightly bump up or down the pressure (usually down). I've never gone lower than say 10 psi. By keeping the thinning ratio the same and adjusting only the pressure I find I'm limiting the number of variables I need to worry about.

3. Light coats. Build up colours slowly on the surface. Wet coats will give you grief.

4. Allow for at least 24 hours to dry/cure. I typically wait 48 hrs before masking the next colour. That being said I will typically remove masking as soon as I possibly can, seems to reduce the chance of tearing.

5. Make sure your paint is really well mixed / agitated.

6. Make sure your surfaces are clean, free of dust / oils and have been primed prior to painting. Give your primer enough time to dry or cure. If anything is going to ruin my paint finishes it's that I sometimes cut corners and rush the pre-paint prep and clean work.

7. I usually keep a saliva moist cotton bud in my mouth while painting, if the needle starts to get some dry paint build up on it I clean it right away. In the case of my JU 88, I could almost paint an entire wing a single colour before having to clean the needle;

8. If some paint does tear upon removing a mask, let it sit until fully cured (wait a couple days at least), then DRY sand the affected area with a very fine grit sanding stick and light pressure to feather the edges. when you're satisfied re-paint just that local spot.

Finally, I found the following video by Scratchmod very helpful;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA4fWXm5cIs

I'm a fan of these great paints, but in the end you have to go with what works for you...

Jason

 

[TEST]

I made this video for a person on a facebook group but it will work here as well, just ignore the names etc.

I show how I spray Model Color with their Airbrush Thinner with no problems whatsoever.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCwXyw_yGhk&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

 

[Julien]

Agreed with everything that was said, but I would add :

- Add a few drops of paint retarder and flow improver with the Vallejo thinner. I rarely have a dry-tip since I started doing that.

- If you need to mask your model/figure, best to do a clear coat first, that will prevent the paint from peeling up...

- Sometimes, a bit of dried paint can goes through in you airbrush, that will cause your ab to clog directly, so be careful...

- Nothing wrong with preferring tamiya paint. They do airbrush nicely and smoothly. The only drawbacks are that they are lacquer-based, so be careful when using them, and you can't use them for brush work...