WWII Weathering Fallacy or Truth. Accuracy.

Old colour processes
Even the film brand affects the colour: Kodachrome being known for warm reds, and Fujicolor having a bluer cast...
Did the photographer use a filter over the lens?
Which brands of chemicals and papers used in the darkroom?
And looking at magazines, well, those images have so much variability in the printing process!
 
This is a great discussion with lots to think about. I guess it ultimately comes down to what we have in mind and are trying to recreate. Is the builder someone that watched perfect F-18s roll off the Boeing assembly line (probably not many WWII factory workers left) or someone that chained heavily used planes to the deck of a deployed CVN. Very different builds, and neither is wrong. Time for me to add a little humility to what I think is "correct".
 
There certainly are photos that were later colorized, but there are some good actual color photos like the ones I posted. IIRC they were from some Time Magazine cover and were originally taken in full color
There are also a number of high quality films that were done in full color, but even then, it can be hard to judge the true colors due to a number of factors
One of those known but seldom used facts is, while both the 'Wizard of Oz' and 'Gone with the Wind', were both released in 1939. Ken Burn's documentary of Major League Baseball, has footage of the World Series played in 1933. Which is in color, shot with a 8mm home camera.
And may be one of the oldest surviving color movies.
Color photography, has been around for quite some time. The first successful experiments, date to the 1860's. A very long 'shot' from the images we see of the non-enhanced images.
 
Pretty intense topic with a lot of brain power invested, deep thought, from all different points, excellent perceptions. This has been an excellent read, Gents, very informative!

Something that I have not seen mentioned, unless I blew past it, which I hope I didn't, is a concept that I have personally adopted and have been using for a very long time now, and that is this; build and paint for the camera. This is not my original idea, not a chance, but from one of the best figure painters I have ever had the privilege to meet, as well as an armor builder who publishes his own book series. Both were basically saying the same thing, build and paint for the camera.

Let me see if I can explain this concept better than, "clear as mud", so here goes. Jakko, please feel free to correct me, if needs be. HA!:oops::rolleyes::p;)

I've said it before, several times, I am playing to the camera, nothing more. None of you will ever be standing anywhere near any of my builds unless you were right here in my presence, or see them at a competition. My work is only seen on-line, so I have to build and paint accordingly, for the camera.

When I plan a dio, scene, or scenario, I do so with the camera in mind, specifically. I always paint my figures, rigs, and structures "for the camera." Just like a combat correspondent taking live shots of the action, or battle scene, I attempt to put the viewer right there, as if physically present. I don't calculate the distances, mathematics, or any other concept, just how the camera views the subject. I can't say I've always been successful at this, but sometimes I do get decent results. It's a constant learning process for me.

So, if you see heavy panel lines or weathering that appears excessive, it should be what a viewer would actually see if he was looking at it in person, with that object right in front of him, where he could reach out and touch it, if he chose to do so. Whatever distance the lens has been used to represent the scene is how the subject should be painted, heavy weathered, panel lines, or not. This is how I personally work.

This leads into another topic that is an art form in and of itself, taking decent photos of our work. It's taken me some time to learn how this all works, and I'm not, by any stretch, a top dog pic taker, just average. I would like to think my pics get the point across as to what I have intended the viewer to see. Like I said, I'm still learning.

Most of us have been "sniffin paint and gluin our fingers together" long enough to recognize an overdone rig or figure. It smacks us in the face quickly, intensely, and can be a put off,………then we say,……..next. And then again, we've all seen the subtle weathering and brush work that looks natural, more realistic, and pleasing to the eyes. However you want to phrase it, it is personal perception and everyone is different, natrually.

So, long story short, I build and paint for the camera and whatever that may call for. I strive to accomplish this in a realistic manner, if possible. That's all I can personally do, try, and then keep trying.

Great subject Gents, Ruck On! Cheers, Ski.
 
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I got by pictures mainly but also experience. I served in both light and heavy mech unit and I have never seen personally I vehicle like some people turn out. Shadows and wear at panels yes...mud yes... Dirt yes... Chips in road wheel rubber yes.

Rust is very rare on any modern vehicles. They use a paint called carc and it is layered. That paint is extremely tough and wear resistant. Every base also has a paint shop and it is actually a maintenance issue and if it needs it your vehicle is scheduled and repainted.

Believe it or not I have seen some helicopters that look more worn so on than ground vehicles. I think Wash's are good. Chipping can be good but is on rare side. Dirt, sand ok but is easy to overdue.

Military vehicles are just kept in much better shape than people think.. they are never left dirty and parked in a moterpool they are always cleaned so on.
 
Pretty intense topic with a lot of brain power invested, deep thought, from all different points, excellent perceptions. This has been an excellent read, Gents, very informative!

Something that I have not seen mentioned, unless I blew past it, which I hope I didn't, is a concept that I have personally adopted and have been using for a very long time now, and that is this; build and paint for the camera. This is not my original idea, not a chance, but from one of the best figure painters I have ever had the privilege to meet, as well as an armor builder who publishes his own book series. Both were basically saying the same thing, build and paint for the camera.

Let me see if I can explain this concept better than, "clear as mud", so here goes. Jakko, please feel free to correct me, if needs be. HA!:oops::rolleyes::p;)

I've said it before, several times, I am playing to the camera, nothing more. None of you will ever be standing anywhere near any of my builds unless you were right here in my presence, or see them at a competition. My work is only seen on-line, so I have to build and paint accordingly, for the camera.

When I plan a dio, scene, or scenario, I do so with the camera in mind, specifically. I always paint my figures, rigs, and structures "for the camera." Just like a combat correspondent taking live shots of the action, or battle scene, I attempt to put the viewer right there, as if physically present. I don't calculate the distances, mathematics, or any other concept, just how the camera views the subject. I can't say I've always been successful at this, but sometimes I do get decent results. It's a constant learning process for me.

So, if you see heavy panel lines or weathering that appears excessive, it should be what a viewer would actually see if he was looking at it in person, with that object right in front of him, where he could reach out and touch it, if he chose to do so. Whatever distance the lens has been used to represent the scene is how the subject should be painted, heavy weathered, panel lines, or not. This is how I personally work.

This leads into another topic that is an art form in and of itself, taking decent photos of our work. It's taken me some time to learn how this all works, and I'm not, by any stretch, a top dog pic taker, just average. I would like to think my pics get the point across as to what I have intended the viewer to see. Like I said, I'm still learning.

Most of us have been "sniffin paint and gluin our fingers together" long enough to recognize an overdone rig or figure. It smacks us in the face quickly, intensely, and can be a put off,………then we say,……..next. And then again, we've all seen the subtle weathering and brush work that looks natural, more realistic, and pleasing to the eyes. However you want to phrase it, it is personal perception and everyone is different, natrually.

So, long story short, I build and paint for the camera and whatever that may call for. I strive to accomplish this in a realistic manner, if possible. That's all I can personally do, try, and then keep trying.

Great subject Gents, Ruck On! Cheers, Ski.
That is motive behind weathering and painting of filming models

Those ILM models for Star Wars had ridiculous amounts of weathering and oddly colored panels when you see them in person, or in pics not from the film.

They were done with the intent that the extremely bright lighting required for filming, along with the processing of the film to get it on screen would wash out most of that

Like you see these X-Wings with weird green, tan and other colored panels because they would actually come out as much lighter tonal variations in the final film

They look kind of silly and garish outside the intended final film look

I actually try to do the opposite when I paint Star Wars models. I aim for what I see on screen rather than match the saturated colors of off screen
 
That is motive behind weathering and painting of filming models

Those ILM models for Star Wars had ridiculous amounts of weathering and oddly colored panels when you see them in person, or in pics not from the film.

They were done with the intent that the extremely bright lighting required for filming, along with the processing of the film to get it on screen would wash out most of that

Like you see these X-Wings with weird green, tan and other colored panels because they would actually come out as much lighter tonal variations in the final film

They look kind of silly and garish outside the intended final film look

I actually try to do the opposite when I paint Star Wars models. I aim for what I see on screen rather than match the saturated colors of off screen
I'd have to agree 100%. The TOS Enterprise was a light green-grey that photographed light grey to white on the television screen.
 
@OldManModeler , this has been great thread, with input from all quarters! I don't think we've exhausted the subject, but I think it has set the baseline for a discussion that will undoubtedly come up again.

Cheers
 
Just wanted to extend a salute to @OldManModeler for this thread, not a reference to the image below, unless subliminal or semi-conscious.

I do not think we all agree, and we are all right about it, and we are all wrong, but on that we all agree!

I was prepared to debate the 1st line-item here, but this are old/obsolete terms on purpose...
1738629008252.png
(besides, my grandmothers said Gesundheit when anyone sneezed, but they were born in the 19th century)
 
This has been an intense topic, and everyone that posted so far has been humble and forthright in their comments. But this topic has been an elephant in the room, or conversely simply taken as truth, in the modeling world. It got worse, or better, ever since so very many modelers went to oils and pastel dust (pigments) for weathering. Washes and dry brushing are much older techniques, but do have a place here in this topic. India Ink panel lines and yada yada.

How far does one go to obtain truth and accuracy?

Or does the artist seek truth that has been standardized in the modeling realm?

Or mainly just for the camera as @Steve Ski posted?

It's all subject to you, the modeler. Why and what you build and how you perceive the finished model or how you want others to perceive it.

Thank you, @BarleyBop and @Edbert for their gracious salutations regarding this thread. I salute you both and all of you modelers enjoying this peaceful art and pastime. I don't deserve the kudos, but thank you.

This topic has been discussed before elsewhere and maybe on this forum too. We have excellent responses from amazingly skilled model artists and craftsmen.

Art is personal sometimes and it's done for different reasons.

If you're still reading my drivel, here's an example of one of my most treasured builds: It is an example of my personal art. It sits at the forefront of my built collection, and maybe only I understand it. The point being that it is my art for a cause that is deeply personal only to me. It is deep and means more than any other kit I've ever built. It's called 'Unfinished'.

20250203_184209.jpg
It was built for my brother. My closest brother. The weathering is there...in my soul.
Built after my brother and I took a two week Jeep trip thru the desert and across the country. It was just he and I. He flew back home early and I drove my Jeep back home. After my brother flew back home, a couple weeks later he passed away. I never saw him again. My brother's life was 'unfinished'.

So, we do it for love of the build, or the game, or something personal. Who is to judge.

Be well. Model on.

Eric
 
We could go on for hours about the psychology of model builds and the formula for weathering accuracy.

To be started by others.
 
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I'll add one more thing, to make it more difficult.
The whole point of "weathering" is to add another level of "realism" (to your model).
Some sort of obvious real world effect upon the surface and surfaces
Trying to turn a "model" into a "scale model miniature".

So, in that case, adding unrealistic weathering would be to make your model less realistic and less acceptable.
lol
Then, some might say "If you're going to add it, it better be correct! or what was the point?"

Which brings us back to the original question about what kind of weathering is correct or acceptable.
Starting the argument(discussion) all over again.

Maybe we should implement a rule that no weathering is allowed (to avoid any conflict) from now on.
lol
 
do not think we all agree, and we are all right about it, and we are all wrong, but on that we all agree!
What you're trying to say is, "We agree to disagree, agreeably." Another one of my dad's favorite lines.
Maybe we should implement a rule that no weathering is allowed (to avoid any conflict) from now on.
lol
Rule #2 Nope, we ain't woke, HA!:p;)
Or, "Its' none of your business what you think of me anyway!" And another one of my dad's favorite lines. I wish I could remember them all, but they come to me when needed, lol.

Be well. Model on.
Great story about your brother, Amigo.
 
Funny, we didn't believe Jack Squat, when we were 17, except ourselves, HA! No, no channeling, none of that funky stuff, just a good memory for old sayings.
 
Funny, we didn't believe Jack Squat, ( and we didn't know Jack Squat!), when we were 17, except ourselves, HA! No, no channeling, none of that funky stuff, just a good memory for old sayings.
Fixed it for you. ;)

I see my dad in the mirror every time I shave.

There is no hocus pocus or channeling. I am just simply; 'My father's son.'

And he was a modeler too.
 
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