What would you do with these paints?

[MJY65]

Jakko,

Not only did we not attack LM, we had our ignorance and lack of skill thrown back at us. We are poisoning ourselves and Planet Earth due to our heavy handed sledge hammer approach to our hobby. All would be rectified if we simply developed our skills to the point where coating selection didn't matter. Kindergarten finger paints, craft paint, latex house paint, whatever. It's just a matter of devoting oneself to mastery.

I'm quickly remembering why I join a lot of forums and rarely post anything. Uggg

 

[Jim62]

My cleaners have evolved also. I mainly used lacquer and started off with Mr Hobby Tool Cleaner. Not cheap. Tried hardware store lacquer thinner next. Works pretty well, but occasionally would react poorly with the next thing through the airbrush if not flushed out with hobby thinners. Current product is big box store acetone in gallon cans. The cost is roughly 1/6 that of "official" airbrush cleaners.

I didn't do it because of cost, though it is much cheaper, I just found IPA to clean the brush much more efficiently than the stuff made to clean air brushes that I tried and no nasty smells come with it. I also don't have to order it. I can just pick it up at a local store.

 

[Littlemarten]

It's always interesting to see how people start becoming defensive after comments that the thing they like, doesn't work for someone else Not just here, I've seen this happen elsewhere too, when somebody says paint brand P doesn't work for them but brand Q does — pretty soon somebody would be defending their own use of brand P even though nobody said anything remotely resembling "people who use P paint are losers!"

Not being defensive, trying to get the point across that since the advent of acrylic hobby paint, one cannot expect one paint brand to behave just like the one they are accustomed to using. If person A gets great results from one particular brand, but person B cannot, it isn't a problem with the paint. If person B finds that two bottles of the same color and brand don't perform the same way, that is a problem with the paint and a reason to denigrate it. There is a world of difference between, "Paint brand A just doesn't work for me," and "Paint brand A is trash."

 

[Jakko]

That is pretty much exactly my point What works for you might not work for me. What works for me might work for you too but not for somebody else. But too often, you see people replying along the lines of, "But if you just give it another try, and just do this or that, you too will love this thing that works for me!"

Yes, you too can probably get the hang of it if you put in the effort. But is it worth the hassle if you already have several other things or methods that do already work for you? IMHO, not usually.

 

[Littlemarten]

I loved, and used Polly Scale for years, then they were acquired by another company which shall remain nameless. Their behavior changed. Then the line was abandoned—I had to find another. After trying several, I settled on one, and took the time to learn to use it. Would I have done so had the original Polly Scale remained available? Heck no! But if I decided, or needed, to use another brand, even for one project, I would not expect it to behave the same way as the paint I use most often. Sure, it's a hassle and bother to "learn" a new material. But to me, at least, far worse is ruining a model I've put days of work into. (That P-40K-1 I posted is a "save" from such a situation.)

 

[Jakko]

That's why I added the part about having something already that does work for you Of course, if your favourite paint or whatever else is discontinued, chances are you'll have to learn how to use another brand. OTOH, when this happened:



I asked for advice, got it, tried it, had it happen again, and said, "I don't need this paint" and gave away all of it that I had as related earlier.

This is Mr. Hobby lacquer thinned with cellulose thinners. When showing this photo on a forum, I was advised to use Mr. Levelling Thinner instead, so I bought a bottle. Nothing changed, so the problem is probably me. But I don't need to learn how to use this paint — the only reason I had it was because I had bought this kit of a Japanese Type 3 Chi-Nu second-hand together with a Mr. Hobby set of Japanese colours (also second-hand, but unopened). After wiping away the cobwebs, the model was painted well enough, but for the other two colours in the camouflage pattern, I just opened the Mr. Hobby bottles, found matches for them in my acrylic paint drawer:



… and closed the Mr, Hobby ones back up. No way was I going to put those colours though my good airbrush if this sort of stuff happens

The point being: I have a ton of other paints that I do get along with, so I have no need to learn how to use these particular ones just for painting this one kit.

FWIW, here's how the model turned out:

 

[Littlemarten]

Nice build—and save from potential disaster!

Speaking as a former paint technologist, that spiderwebbing is usually caused by one of two things: paint that has started to polymerize in the bottle, or use of an incompatible solvent. The first is usually detected when mixing, but not always. The second can result from residual, and incompatible, solvent left in the airbrush from a previous cleaning, or from the use of an incompatible, or marginally compatible, thinning solvent, especially in a solvent blend like "lacquer thinner," also called cellulose thinner. That's why I don't advocate or encourage the use of such solvent blends.

Here's the problem: Such terms as "lacquer thinner" and "cellulose thinner" are generic trade names. They have no specific composition, and are almost always solvent blends. Not only that, even from the same manufacturer, the composition may change, since the specification is entirely up to the manufacturer.

I'm not familiar with the Gunze paint lines, but if you used their own, proprietary thinner and got the same problem, there was something wrong with the second hand paint. As I understand it, Gunze makes two lines, one an aqueous solvent system, and one an alcohol solvent system. They do not mix. A generic (lacquer thinner) thinning solvent might work with the alcohol solvent system, but would produce the result you got with an aqueous system. If their proprietary thinner caused the same result, that would indicate it was the thinner for the other line of paints.

I entirely understand wanting to use an abundantly available, reasonably priced, generic thinning solvent! The last time I calculated the price per gallon of Tamiya's proprietary thinner, it was over $40, over ten years ago. Outrageous. So I did the research to determine a generic alternative: 90% isopropyl alcohol, with a little Tamiya retarder. I have the knowledge to do that, most don't. (Yes, I did it for Vallejo, even though their dilution ratios generally run 1or 2 to 10, so I use their thinner.)

 

[MJY65]

So I did the research to determine a generic alternative: 90% isopropyl alcohol, with a little Tamiya retarder. I have the knowledge to do that, most don't.

Wow….

 

[OldManModeller]

Heres a chem reaction fit for ya all.

Currently working on Italeri DUKW. Kit #6392. Going with the USMC version even tho there are no legit USMC decals in the kit.

I found this hairspray anomoly. I am using Tamiya acrylics. Hairspray is 'Rave brand 4x Mega with clima- shield'.

I think that the flat clear coat will cover my chem reaction. But, if not, I may actually just go with it. It does create depth and free weathering. Salt water had its impact. Kit is not finished.



Be well. Model on.

Comments good or bad are welcome.

Eric

 

[Littlemarten]

In all honesty, I'd go with it. It looks like salt encrustation on a painted surface, with some degradation of the paint beginning (yes, concentrated salt water in a wet environment did deteriorate paints of that era, especially with high UV exposure.)

Why did you use hair spray? I've no idea what it might contain, and I doubt the manufacturer will tell me!

Tamiya acrylics are an alcohol solvent system, and I'll bet the hairspray you used contains alcohol of some sort. (There are lots of different alcohols!) Possibly the alcohol (or another component) is incompatible with the Tamiya binder (polymer).

 

[OldManModeller]

In all honesty, I'd go with it. It looks like salt encrustation on a painted surface, with some degradation of the paint beginning (yes, concentrated salt water in a wet environment did deteriorate paints of that era, especially with high UV exposure.)

Why did you use hair spray? I've no idea what it might contain, and I doubt the manufacturer will tell me!

Tamiya acrylics are an alcohol solvent system, and I'll bet the hairspray you used contains alcohol of some sort. (There are lots of different alcohols!) Possibly the alcohol (or another component) is incompatible with the Tamiya binder (polymer).

I used hairspray because I plan to do chipping on the hull rails. Plain and simple. Base coat of olive, then hairspray, then the camo paint. Then paint chip the camo scheme down to the olive base.

Thank you @Littlemarten !

 

[Littlemarten]

You're welcome!

 

[Jakko]

Nice build—and save from potential disaster!

Thanks. I did have to be quick wiping away those cobwebs, though — they left little "attachment points" if I wasn't careful.

The second can result from residual, and incompatible, solvent left in the airbrush from a previous cleaning

Unlikely, as I generally spray things once every few months or so. Anything left in it would have evaporated long before I put this paint into it. (I remember fiddling with the pressure to see if that helped, but it didn't.)

Here's the problem: Such terms as "lacquer thinner" and "cellulose thinner" are generic trade names.

What I used for the first attempt was hardware-store paint thinner, which in this country generally means it's largely or entirely toluene.

I'm not familiar with the Gunze paint lines, but if you used their own, proprietary thinner and got the same problem, there was something wrong with the second hand paint.

Could be, but the bottles were new and unopened. It's not like this was a set someone bought twenty years ago and forgot about.

If their proprietary thinner caused the same result, that would indicate it was the thinner for the other line of paints.

Unlikely. This was the Mr. Hobby paint line, which are lacquers; Mr. Leveling Thinner, which I was advised to use, is intended specifically for those paints — but a lot of people also happily use it with Mr. Aqueous (the alcohol-based line) and Tamiya X- and XF-series paints.

I entirely understand wanting to use an abundantly available, reasonably priced, generic thinning solvent!

I thin alcohol-based paints with >99.9% isopropanol, of which I bought a litre bottle some years ago and which will last me for the coming decade at least Like you say, this is a lot cheaper than Tamiya's thinners, and works just fine. Before that, I used windscreen wiper fluid, which also worked well, for a lot less per litre bottle than Tamiya charges for 250 ml.

Same with glue, BTW. Hardware stores here sell a brand of degreasing agent/thinner for contact cement (it claims to be both on the tin, and is) that dissolves polystyrene. 250 ml costs around €8, when a 40 ml bottle of model cement generally costs almost as much. I've been refilling empty cement bottles with this stuff for 35 years, only buying a new bottle when the brush wears out. A few years ago I bought a bottle of Tamiya Extra Thin, to try it out; I liked it enough that I now use both, depending on which will work best. When it started getting empty, I purchased 100 ml of each of its two main constituents (acetone and butyl acetate, off the top of my head) plus a lab pipette and just refill it with equal amounts of each every so often. Though when these run out, I think I'll just buy a bottle of Tamiya airbrush cleaner instead, which is the same blend as TET; it's more expensive than the separate chemicals but much cheaper than TET.

 

[Littlemarten]

For solvent cement, I use methylene chloride, a rather nasty chemical used commercially for degreasing and plastic bonding. When I had access to a chemical lab, I asked our organic chemist to analyze a bottle of solvent cement (I've forgotten the brand name) and he told me it was methylene chloride. That chemical is about to be regulated out of existence over here, so I bought a gallon while it was still available—I still have part of the first gallon I bought, thirty years or more ago. Because methylene chloride is a very "fast" solvent, I mix it with toluene, which is a very slow solvent for styrene. This is for when I want the plastic to stay partially dissolved for longer. Useful for long, thin but flat seams like the trailing edges of wings, or where the fit is "finnicky."

A side note: I read your abbreviation for Tamiya Extra Thin, TET, as "tetra ethyl toluene" the first time I read your post. Quite a jolt until I realized what you meant!

 

[Pantherman]

It's always interesting to see how people start becoming defensive after comments that the thing they like, doesn't work for someone else Not just here, I've seen this happen elsewhere too, when somebody says paint brand P doesn't work for them but brand Q does — pretty soon somebody would be defending their own use of brand P even though nobody said anything remotely resembling "people who use P paint are losers!"

Yeah, each to their own. That's what makes things different and interesting. Pantherman

 

[Jakko]

I asked our organic chemist to analyze a bottle of solvent cement (I've forgotten the brand name) and he told me it was methylene chloride.

I just looked that up, and isn't that a gas at room temperature? Unless you mean methylene bichloride (dichloromethane), which does appear to be a liquid.

(I dropped out of studying chemistry in a past life, so I know a little about this stuff but it's been long enough ago that looking these things up, I mainly realise how much I've forgotten.)

Because methylene chloride is a very "fast" solvent, I mix it with toluene, which is a very slow solvent for styrene.

Funny anecdote here is that two months ago, I was talking to someone who told me Tamiya Extra Thin was so fast he can barely get parts into position before it evaporates. I replied that I use it when I need more time to position parts than with what I normally glue kits with (I looked up the MSDS for that and it says it's basically 25–50% naphtha, 10–25% ethyl acetate, 10–25% desulfurised naphtha and 10–25% butanone (AKA MEK). It evaporates a lot faster than TET, I know that much

I read your abbreviation for Tamiya Extra Thin, TET, as "tetra ethyl toluene"

From what I remember of my chemistry studies, I'm not sure I want to be in the same room as that for very long

 

[Littlemarten]

Organic chemistry seems to change it's terminology on a continuing basis, which makes it more difficult for people who took chemistry almost fifty years ago. I frequently have to check my terminology against the newer version. When I first encountered it, it was methylene chloride. Later, IIRC, they changed that to dichloromethane. New organic compounds are developed on a daily basis. As a result, terminology has to be changed, and even the method of terminology has to be revised. So now it's a gas …

I still use the term because it's what I learned—forty years ago—and it's still in use. I just looked at the gallon in the basement. Can't tell the chemicals without a program.

That MSDS appears to be in Dutch?

"Naptha" is another imprecise term for a solvent blend, and there are several kinds. So the breakdown really doesn't tell you anything much.

What I meant by a "fast" solvent cement is that it both affects styrene rapidly, and evaporates rapidly. I've seen the term "hot" applied to this as well.

There are very few organic compounds I want to be in a room with for very long. I have a a good spray booth vented to the outside, and a small fan embedded in my workbench for when I'm using solvent cements. I note you have what appears to be an excellent spray booth, too. It can't hurt you if you don't breathe it or get it on your skin,