Gloss coat between steps not working?

[AKRoast]

Hi
Background: I have two models now where I used an Ammo acrylic primer, then a mix of AB Tamiya acrylics and hand painted details that are often done with Testors Enamel because I like the feel and coverage of it with a brush vs Tamiya acrylics with one. After that I AB on Vallejo acrylic gloss coat, apply decals, and AB on another gloss coat. The gloss coats seem pretty thick. I let dry a day between. I then use Tamiya oil based panel line/pin wash with their little built in brush.

Ok now the issue:
when I go back to wipe off excess wash, the wash has gotten thru the gloss coat and softened the enamel paint. If I then rub that detail, it smudges/roughens the enamel.

I had seen on YT that the gloss coat had to be acrylic so an oil based wash would not do that? And it had to be an oil based wash because the gloss coat and paint coats were mostly acrylics. Maybe I can't use any enamel paint for details in this scenario? Or maybe the Vallejo gloss coat is too weak? Maybe not enough drying time between steps?

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Belugawrx]

I have had that problem as well, and have switched to my own waterbase pinwash mix ...CraftSmart paint, water,and a couple drops of Liquitex flowaid.
It will not harm any paints.

 

[Edbert]

I'm no expert of the various paint types, in fact I'm below average. Still trying to get over what I learned in the 1970s that acrylic were water based, enamels used turpentine and lacquer user lacquer thinner. Whether that was true back then or not, it is not even close to true in this new age.

I spent MONTHS trying to figure out how to put a clear coat down to enable enamel or oil washes. Ruined one kit trying (https://www.scalemodeladdict.com/threads/f-16-aggressor.15628/) and came out with poor results on several. But I figured it out!

I usually used Tamiya acrylics for the color coat, used AK clears, and enamel/oil washes. When that didn't work I tried Model Masters enamels as the base coat and tried various clears, Tamiya acrylic, Tamiya Lacquer, even some Testors clears. I tried different solvents (turpentine, white spirits, artist oils, you name it) for the washes and filters. No matter what various product I used my weathering/shading/panel-lining would eat the clear and attack the base color.

Turns out the entire time it was me. I was putting the clear down WAAAY too thin. This did occur to me early on, I tried four coats of clear one time thinking maybe it was too thin, four coats would do it right? Well, one coat is enough if you spray it thick and heavy enough.

I learned to use an airbrush as a watercolor technique, hyper thin spray that allows the white paper to show through. On my models I would make multiple passed with slight color variations between each, getting full coverage and opacity by building up the layers. This is (in my opinion) a good way to paint in color, but it is trash for clear coating.

I solved it by getting a cheap brush with 0.50 and spraying the clear so thick I swear it was gonna run or get orange peel, but it didn't. I thought I was going to plug up recessed rivets and panel lines too, but it didn't. I cannot say for certain this is your problem, but damn is it worth a try!

I'm getting great results with X-22 as my gloss coat. I can scrub and rub hard on top of it with a turpentine soaked brush with no ill effects. Grab your mule, paint it heavy and wait 48 hours and let me know if that helps.

 

[AKRoast]

Thank you - I think a) will try Tamiya x-22 as gloss rather than truly water based Vallejo, b) try even thicker 2-coats of clear, and c) add 24 hours curing to every step. I figured out finally to have 2 builds going at once to allow staying busy between coats (well busy with my hobby instead of working more or doing home improvement lol). So far washes on general have not looked nearly as nice or effective as in the videos. I also need to try the build up of color variation in paint layers. I did get a cheap master airbrush trigger model that might as well be a garden hose sprayer, for my primer and clear coats. I have been using Mr.hobby aqueous matte coat rattle can for final step. Doesn't matte it quite well enough in my opinion.

 

[AKRoast]

Here is finished product

 

[BarleyBop]

...more, please!

 

[Littlemarten]

I generally like the Vallejo product line, but their gloss clear is the worst clear coat I've ever tried. Their semi-gloss and flat clears are fine, but the gloss is a mess waiting to happen. Go figure.

In general, clear coats are a bear, and an unfriendly one at that, because it is hard to see how heavy a coating one is applying. Working with a light source at an angle to the surface, one can sometimes judge by the surface glare how thick the coating is.

Now the real joker: Just because an acrylic coating is water based does not mean it will not be attacked by other solvents. When in doubt, test this on scrap, not the model you've been working on for a month.

Also, gloss paints in general cure more slowly than flat paints, so give them more time to cure.

 

[BarleyBop]

test this on scrap

In the heat of the creative moment, or the impatience to finish, it is so easy to forget.

 

[the Baron]

I second using a wash made from water and water-soluable acrylics, over any commerically-made washes made from other media, like enamels or oils and mineral spirits, or any kind of lacquers. And remember that "acrylic" does not mean "water-soluable". Many brands of acrylics are water-based, eg, Andrea, Vallejo, but there are others that aren't. We've got a number of discussions here in the forum to explain the chemistry, which are good for reference.

I like to use water-based craft store brands and plain ol' water to make washes, generally.

Best regards,
Brad

 

[Littlemarten]

In the heat of the creative moment, or the impatience to finish, it is so easy to forget.

Maybe it's the habit of my professional lifetime: test first, build later. Or maybe it's the frustration factor. For so many years my building time was very limited, and making a materials mistake on a build just added to the frustration. So I took a few minutes to test combinations of coatings on paint hulks and scrap. Building is supposed to be fun, not frustration. That investment of a small amount of precious modeling time saved ENORMOUS amounts of frustration.

We all have to hurry a lot in this society. In scale modeling, if you are in a hurry, it is not a hobby, it's a hassle.

 

[Littlemarten]

{snip}

I like to use water-based craft store brands and plain ol' water to make washes, generally.

Best regards,
Brad

You might try adding a small bit of Calgon™ or distilled white vinegar (a drop or two) to the wash to reduce the water's surface tension. Some of these craft paints already have an aditive that does the same thing, but it varies.

 

[Jakko]

I second using a wash made from water and water-soluable acrylics, over any commerically-made washes made from other media, like enamels or oils and mineral spirits, or any kind of lacquers.

Which, it bears repeating, makes it completely unnecessary to apply clear coats at all — except if you want/need them to make the decals adhere better, of course. But you don't need one to protect the paintwork underneath from an aggressive wash.

However, there is one "risk" in water-based washes, in that they're more likely to form tide lines at the bottoms of inclined or vertical panels. You will need to keep wicking away the paint that builds up there while the wash dries, and may have to drybrush over it with the colour underneath the wash to get rid of it completely after it has thoroughly dried.

 

[Jim62]

When I was doing washes I used soft pastels in water with a drop of dish soap. Never had any problems with that.